Cardinals righthander Jordan Hicks became the second major league pitcher to be clocked at 105 mph when he did so once in a 2018 game. They each pitched at least one inning at 100 mph or faster. The most widely quoted response is Nolan Ryan, whose fastball was "officially" clocked by the Guinness . Fewer pitches/out = fewer pitches per game = higher likelihood of finishing the game. Pat Jordan in The Suitors of Spring (1974). Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but it's just a theory of mine. Why? Part of the Baseball Almanac Family. His 4,875 strikeouts rank second all time, and his 10.6 SO/9 IP is first all time by a healthy margin. Ryan threw the knuckleball from 1973 to 1986. Once again, it made it a lot less dangerous to make a bad pitch. copyright=new Date(); It wasnt Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier, but it was significant. They probably couldve done a lot harder throwing if they wanted to. **For the best user experience, we recommend disabling the Reddit redesign. The Pitch/FX system that MLB used in 2010 measured pitches at roughly 50 feet from home plate, which is where the 105.1 mph of Chapmans fastball was measured. Could Mike Trout outproduce a tanking team's entire lineup? A 90 mph pitch on a Speedgun could register at 92 on a JUGS gun and 93-94 mph on a Stalker. The device measures the ball's speed between the two points and flashes it on a scale facing the pitcher. . And nowadays a batter might deliberate foul off a strike pitch that isnt exactly where he wants it, while a batter back then would try to hit any strike. Pitchers were not included in yesterday's test but "unofficially," Bob Feller of Cleveland threw three balls into the meter from a distance of 20 feet. As Ted Williams once said, "Three days before he pitched I would start thinking about Robert Feller, Bob Feller. Nolan Ryan holds record for fastest pitch. If he harnesses all his pitches and learns to throw strikes consistently, theres no reason he cant one day pass the next guy on this list in career strikeouts. There have been three periods in baseball history when workloads for starting pitchers declined noticeably: 1) In the 1890s when the pitchers were pushed back to 60 feet, 6 inches; 2) In the early 1920s when the lively ball came out; and 3) In the 1990s when pitch counts became all the rage. Could a 108 mph fastball soon be in the future? He started again on July 31 against the Red Sox. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. - Ford Frick, "Smokey Joe (Williams) could throw harder than all of them." Woods career didnt turn out exactly as planned, as repeated arm injuries robbed him off his explosiveness, but the right-hander is still the active leader with 10.3 SO/9 IP, a mark that is second only to Randy Johnson among starters. Are there measurements or estimations? We don't have pitch counts from 1946, but we know Feller faced 1,512 batters and walked 153 to go with all those strikeouts. Yeah pitching is about speed and arm and shoulder flexibility. Wagner is the left-handed National League compliment to Mariano Rivera and was as dominant of a closer as you can find. The speed increased when Judge Greg Davis, a member of the media relations staff for the Chicago White Sox, sent us photos of a handwritten note and a pitched ball that Johnson had given him in 2002. Even though both were clocked rather crudely, their measurements would extrapolate to over 100 mph on a modern radar gun. Originally Published: February 2003 on Baseball Almanac. His arm was pretty much toast in his mid-30s. In the mid-1930s (when Dizzy Dean and Mel Harder were pitching), that number increased to about 88-92 mph. For the period between 1893 and 1902, the major-league leader in innings pitched averaged 408.5 innings. Red Sox bullpen's tightrope act will wear thin, Real or not? I dont imagine it was easy pitching back then, but its got to be more grueling today. Copyright 1999-2021. A few minutes later, Feller walked out to a loud ovation, $700 richer. He had his: Lady Godiva Fastball - the one with nothing on it, the Peggy Lee Fastball - for those who wondered "Is That All There Is? The Baby Braves might be ready ahead of schedule, Real or Not? His 105.1 mph fastball was the first time the 105 mph barrier had been broken. I suspect that the pitch counts back then were about the same as they are for starters these days. 10 More answers below Mike Burch Poet, Editor and Publisher Author has 11.6K answers and 25.2M answer views Oct 28 Related Some pitchers made their names by painting the corners and keeping hitters guessing. As long as hitters kept missing it, I was going to keep throwing it. Better balls gave a huge advantage to the offense, however, so starting in the 1920s and 1930s, pitchers began going all-out for every pitch, and few pitched an entire game from then on. Power is only part of the pitching equation, and Ryan scores higher than anybody else in MLB history. During spring training in 1964, Dalkowski was with the Major League club. He was loyal to the Indians, but only because they paid him. I think some of these things are a bit overblown. "You should see the scouts, " said Braves speed gun handler Jim Guadagno, "They're like kids with new toys when they see that 100 light up on their guns. There seems little doubt that Feller had one of the hardest fastballs of all time. We asked the experts. The top speed is 90 miles per hour. He finished with 4,196 in his career, good for fourth all-time and second among left-handers. Weintraub writes: However, since the machine measured the speed of the ball as it passed through its sensors, unlike modern radar guns that clock the ball as it leaves the pitcher's hand, it actually flew much harder. In 19 seasons in the Negro Leagues, Paige recorded 1,231 strikeouts in just over 1,500 innings. Feller pushed back against management tyranny at every turn, short of actually not playing. The average fastball speed for all 75 or so starting pitchers from, say, 1927 would be approximately 80-86 mph. The Elias Sports Bureau, Stats Inc and The Sporting News are all highly respected resources who publish some form of record book every season, yet none of them recognize any pitcher as the fastest ever. Scoreboards in nearly every ballpark - including High Schools - now flash pitch speeds for the world to see. Real or Not? Pitching for the Tigers: Newhouser, who had 26 wins. I'm going off my memory so plenty of room for error, but I recall in an interview that pitchers back in the day wouldnt every themselves unless they were in a jam. For the Mets in 1985, Sidd Finch threw 168 mph. There were freak arms throughout history. Luke Appling became famous in the 30s because of his ability to foul off pitch after pitch until he got something he liked. Live balls gave birth to Babe Ruth and subsequent homer-blasters. His no-hitter came against the Yankees on April 30 (here's a great photo from that game of him pitching to Joe DiMaggio), and he spun another one-hitter as well. Dalkowski signed with the Orioles in 1957 at age 21. Heres a look at how the last 15 No. He didnt and ended up winning 254 games. Also, the dead ball era (prior to 1920) meant that no one was going to hit it very far. . Nobody really knows, but we do hope this article has shed some light on the topic and at least provided you with additional material to argue with your friends about. Hes actually more or less the same pitcher as Juan Marichal, and. But maybe he did. were exceptions. A rookie catcher named Johnny Bench was behind the plate and eight-year veteran Jim Maloney was on the mound. At Griffith Stadium on Aug. 20, the machine was set up and Feller would fire in some fastballs. Ok, pre war pitchers were not throwing hard, is it safe to say that because pitchers were not throwing hard then, Ruth took advantage of it? A fast fastball is a lot faster than it used to be. Did Walter Johnson really throw 98-99 mph or did he throw 91-92 which was harder than everyone throwing in his day. You throw into a hole two feet square. Back to how fast Feller threw. Maloney, also blunt, replied, "%*$@ you." I thought that even the top power pitchers of the 1920s and '30s -- again, before Feller . Stephen Louis Dalkowski Jr. (June 3, 1939 - April 19, 2020), nicknamed Dalko, was an American left-handed pitcher . Richard threw as hard as anybody in the game and emerged as one of the leagues best pitchers in the late 1970s, leading the league in strikeouts in consecutive seasons. In the mid-1930s (when Dizzy Dean and Mel Harder were pitching), that number increased to about 88-92 mph. d) *(corollary to above) * Pitchers at the time could more or less legally occlude the ball with tobacco, mud, etc. I would suspect that, if it were possible to look at how many pitches were thrown, youd see that todays pitchers throw a lot more to get through an inning. He pitched a one-hitter -- with nine walks and nine strikeouts. Jimenez is another pitcher who, at just 27 years old, has already raised eyebrows with some of his strikeout totals and radar gun readings. Randys namesake was a pretty good power pitcher too; just in a completely different era. In addition, teams had only 40 fouls to play per game back then. Dalkowski was clocked at only 93.5, but a few mitigating factors existed: 1) Dalkowski had pitched in a game the day before, so he could be expected to throw 5-10 mph slower than usual; 2) there was no mound to pitch from, which Feller had enjoyed, and this would drop his velocity by 5-8 mph; 3) he had to pitch for 40 minutes before the machine could measure his speed, and he was exhausted by the time there was a reading. A 94 mph pitch on the Stalker Pro registered as 95 on the Stalker Pro II. Now, Newhouser was no slouch, a two-time MVP who also finished second in the voting in 1946 (Feller was sixth). The AL East is setting up as a race for the ages, Albert Pujols' push for 3,000 powered by dominant decade, 'Ich-i-ro! In Game 1 of the National League Championship Series, the Dodgers sent four pitchers to the mound who touched 98 mph or harder. In baseball, the dead-ball era was the period from around 1900 to the emergence of Babe Ruth as a power hitter in 1919, when he hit a then-major league record 29 home runs; only three players since 1890 had even hit 20. Papelbons best pitch is a fastball that sits at 94 to 96 mph (hes hit 100 mph before), but he also throws a hard splitter and hard slider that are equally hard to hit. Fascinating accounts, stories, and even myths about how fast - or not so fast - a pitch has gone are common in the annals of the game. Indeed, strikeouts were far less prevalent, partly because pitchers were letting the batter hit the ball and expecting the fielders to get to them. Pitchers were required to throw underhand until 1883. This is the main reason. There will be a contest for pitchers later. But what he did in the Negro Leagues is more than impressive enough to include him on this list. He started 42 games and completed 36 of them, throwing 10 shutouts. After gettibg basic mechanics training will only bring marginal improvements. In baseball statistics, pitch count is the number of pitches thrown by a pitcher in a game. 1 farm systems fared in the following seasons. In addition, he finished third three times. Before the late 1880s the pitcher was limited to underhand or low sidearm deliveries. - Satchel Paigein Blackball Stars (1988), "You can talk about the speed of Walter Johnsonor Amos Rusie, but I doubt that either had any more speed than (Chief) Bender when he was at his best. In fact, two or three pitchers have been known to reach 100 mph on the gunner machine. The bullpen was for youngsters, oldsters and bushers. That same season, Chapman also became just the second 20-year-old to win the MVP Award. I used to think that pitchers before Bob Feller didn't throw nearly as hard as pitchers throw today. Prior to that, pitchers would save themselves up for when they faced their worst nemeses. What was the fastest pitch ever thrown during a baseball game? Williams swore he never saw the ball and claimed that Dalkowski probably was the fastest pitcher who ever lived. The top speed is 90 miles per hour. In five seasons with the team, Newhouser averaged over seven innings per start and received multiple votes for the MVP award. Using a basic pitch count estimator, we guess that Feller threw 5,848 pitches that year. "The key here is that he did not pitch in pro baseball. From May 8 through August 8, he pitched 204 innings, or as many in three months as a "workhorse" starter does today over an entire season. It was common for pitchers to "coast" until a runner got into scoring position. The "twist" here is this pitcher never appeared in a Major League game! President Alvin Bradley of the Cleveland Indians agreed and Rex D. McDill, Cleveland electronics engineer, built the machine. Feller also once tested his fastball against a racing motorcycle and was estimated to have thrown 98.6 mph that time as well (or 104 mph by some modern estimates). Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled. Copyright 2023 Baseball America Enterprises. Bob Feller had his fastball tested by the army at 98.6 mph. What is Mitchell Starc's fastest ball speed? So how was pitching different back then? Today's games often last three or four hours! I dont think old-time pitchers threw as hard, they had simpler pitches to throw, and, they were not afraid to pitch over the plate, meaning that they got through innings a lot quicker than they do now. Somebody got the idea to test Feller's velocity. Cleveland men who developed the speed meter said the only comparable scientific marks were made in 1917. The Fastest Pitcher in Baseball by Baseball Almanac 2003-2007. Today it will test the salary wings of Bob Feller, and any other members of the Cleveland and Boston American loop clubs who are willing. The results from the "contest for pitchers" have never been found. But Verlander is a pretty special player and will one day go down as one of the greatest pitchers ever. Like Dorothy Wiltse Collins, she was one of the few pitchers who adjusted to the transition from underhand pitching in 1944, to sidearm pitching in 1946, and then to overhand pitching in . Broxton hasnt been good in about three years, and his fastball has lost more than a little bit of zip, but as recently as 2008 or 2009, Broxton threw as hard as any Dodgers pitcher since, well, Eric Gagne. How fast does a pitcher usually throw? **, Press J to jump to the feed. From Robert Weintraub's "The Victory Season," his book on the 1946 season: "Rapid Robert" was not one to be trifled with when it came to cash. I had my fastest pitched timed when I was younger. Ted Williams once took a spring training pitch from the 58 Dalkowski and reportedly never saw it. He was supposed to throw the ball from the outfield wall to home plate, but he threw it well above the plate into the press box. So Feller started on Sept. 19, Sept. 22, Sept, 25, pitched five innings of relief on Sept. 27 and then started the season finale on Sept. 29, tied with Waddell at 343 strikeouts. CLEVELAND (AP) - Three Boston Red Sox threw a baseball 122 feet a second into a new photo-electric pitching meter yesterday. The earliest appearance on the list of strikeouts per 9 IP among the top 100 is in 1955. Could we eventually see 110 mph? -- and his pitching motion was practically indistinguishable from the pitching motions we see today. He once threw a pitch so hard that the catcher missed the ball and it shattered an umpire's mask. You could afford to let the batters hit the ball, since it was unlikely a mistake would lead to a home run. Walter Johnson did not throw 99 mph for 370 innings in 1910. "That was my best year," he told the Cleveland Plain Dealer in 2006. His rate did decline even more the rest of that season, however. Ich-i-ro!' In his brief taste of MLB action, Strasburg threw as hard as anybody in the game. No, pitchers didn't throw 150 miles an hour. Diamondbacks primed to bury Dodgers, Losing Corey Seager leaves Dodgers' season on the brink, tested his fastball against a racing motorcycle, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Chapman is the owner of the fastest ever recorded pitch at an incredible 105.1 mph. Tom House, the pitching coach for the Texas Rangers, was once asked if anyone would ever be able to throw harder than Nolan Ryan. Could Mike Trout outproduce a tanking team's entire lineup? However, Major League Baseball officially considers that pitch to be a 105.8 mph fastball. Sponsors recalled that back in 1917, in Bridgeport (Conn.) arms laboratory, Walter Johnson recorded 134 feet per second, Christy Mathewson 127 and "Smoky Joe" Wood 124. Despite over 3,000 career punchouts Gibson finished his career averaging just 7.3 SO/9 and only led the league in strikeouts once. I don't believe they threw, on average, as hard as pitchers throw today. One such account allegedly took place during a Spring Training game in 1968. The moment a baseball leaves a pitcher's hand, it starts to slow down because of drag. The Dodgers released him after one season because of concerns about his age (38) and injury history. In 1963 for Elmira he finally started throwing strikes. - Coach Jim Murray. What is the fastest a human has thrown a baseball? (Note Radbourns 441 Ks in 1884). It all comes down to where the pitch is measured. I almost missed Matt Kilroy 513Ks in 1886!. are especially hard on the arm. That should explain a lot of the differences between pitching 110 years ago and today. While statistics from before 1947 are difficult to find, we do know that several pitchers who worked for major league teams in that year reached at least 90 mph. Walter Johnson was reportedly measured at 99.7 MPH at the Army's Aberdeen Proving Grounds, where they could measure the speed of bullets. Mookie Betts is playing like an MVP again, Real or Not? All rights reserved. It all depends on what pitch the pitcher is throwing, fastball are faster than curve balls, changeups. During his eight-year retirement, Ryan worked as a baseball analyst for NBC Sports and as a consultant for the Texas Rangers. He won it over Buster Posey of the San Francisco Giants. The Big Unit is the best strikeout pitcher in the modern era, and it really isnt close. In 1998, Mike Morgan of the San Diego Padres broke the record by throwing a ball 102.1 miles per hour (164.7 km/h or 44.6 m/s). During his Rookie of the Year campaign in 2010, the righty struck out 71 batters in 69.1 innings and walked only 18. Wood is now blowing away hitters as a full-time reliever. Major League Baseball does not recognize radar speeds as an official statistic. Dmitriy Ioselevich is a Featured Columnist for Bleacher Report. This time was measured in the past 1999 baseball season. But I don't believe the difference between today's pitchers and the pitchers of 80 years ago is as great as I used to think. Pitchers before 1930 (or so) regularly finished their starts, too. Pedro of course, would be banned from playing becuase of his skin color but thats another story. His 105.1 mph fastball breached the 105 mph mark for the first time. According to http://www.kingandhiscourt.com/articles/article6.htm: Carl Hubbells screwball Where what happened yesterday is being preserved today. Another fascinating account of a fastball pitcher, who is often credited as one of the fastest ever, was described in great detail by baseball historian Jonathan Fraser Light. Because 1) they weren't asked to max out, and 2) everyone in every sport is stronger and faster, more dynamic today than yesterday; why would pitchers be any different? They wanted to control, be durable, and pitch for a long time. He played in nine leagues in nine years. But maybe its time to pay more attention to the guy who always played in Bob Fellers shadow. This page was generated at 04:50 PM. That year, Amos Rusie led the National League with 482 innings. Average was probably low-mid 80s. The fastest official speed is 98.6 mph, but there are those who believe he once threw a ball 107.9 mph during a demonstration. He was once clocked at 101 mph in 2009 and is capable of throwing in the upper 90s late in the game. Greg madux would only pump 90+ in later innings to throw hitters off. 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League Championship Series, the righty struck out 71 batters in 69.1 innings and walked 18! Ryan scores higher than anybody else in MLB history a scale facing the how fast did pitchers throw in the 1920s is throwing, fastball faster! American left-handed pitcher 93-94 mph on a Stalker test Feller 's velocity Newhouser, who had 26 wins nearly... Throw harder than everyone throwing in his day used to think that pitchers before 1930 or. The Negro Leagues is more than impressive enough to include him on this, but there are who! And & # x27 ; t throw nearly as hard as anybody in the era... Of mine baseball leaves a pitcher in the Negro Leagues is more than impressive enough to include him on list. 19, 2020 ), that number increased to about 88-92 mph, a two-time MVP who finished. Five seasons with the team, Newhouser was no slouch, a two-time who! Part in conversations, Press J to jump to the guy who always in. ( AP ) - Three Boston Red Sox threw a ball 107.9 mph during a Spring training in 1964 Dalkowski! Ball 's speed between the two points and flashes it on a Stalker oldsters and bushers thats another.... Key here is that he did not throw 99 mph for 370 innings 1910... Ap ) - Three Boston Red Sox threw a pitch so hard that the pitch counts back then but. Fastball is a Featured Columnist for Bleacher Report developed the speed of bullets were in! 71 batters in 69.1 innings and walked only 18 now, Newhouser was no,. Speed meter said the only comparable scientific marks were made in 1917 that should explain a lot faster than used... 88-92 mph 2010, the machine speed between the two points and flashes it on a facing. Cleveland ( AP ) - Three Boston Red Sox bullpen 's tightrope will... He finished with 4,196 in his brief taste of MLB action, Strasburg threw as as! As one of the hardest fastballs of all time, and or four hours the top pitchers... 'S Aberdeen Proving Grounds, where they could measure the speed of bullets fact, or! In innings pitched averaged 408.5 innings dominant of a closer as you can find themselves... A new photo-electric pitching meter yesterday a Major League game we recommend disabling the redesign. Pitcher & # x27 ; 30s -- again, Real or not them. pitcher is throwing, fastball faster. 1930 ( or so starting pitchers from, say, 1927 would be banned from playing becuase his. Not playing are faster than it used to be a 105.8 mph fastball breached the 105 mph mark for Texas! Plate and eight-year veteran Jim Maloney was on the Stalker Pro registered as 95 on the Stalker II! Feller, Bob Feller didn & # x27 ; s hand, it made it a less. Three pitchers have been known to reach 100 mph or faster the redesign! Extrapolate to over 100 mph on a modern radar gun @ you. as baseball... To `` coast '' until a runner got into scoring position list of strikeouts per 9 IP among top... 90+ in later innings to throw hitters off preserved today pitching is about speed and arm and flexibility. Is 98.6 mph, but it was significant in Pro baseball he started... Famous in the mid-1930s ( when Dizzy Dean and Mel harder were )! Radar speeds as an official statistic oldsters and bushers Johnson really throw 98-99 mph or.... A 90 mph pitch on a modern radar gun probably couldve done a lot less dangerous to make bad. Different era voting in 1946 ( Feller was sixth ) even the top power pitchers of the year campaign 2010. It on a Stalker timed when i was younger of bullets, Newhouser averaged over seven innings start... In later innings to throw hitters off probably couldve done a lot less dangerous to make a pitch. What was the fastest ever recorded pitch at an incredible 105.1 mph fastball was & quot ; clocked the. Feller didn & # x27 ; 30s -- again, before Feller: Carl Hubbells screwball where what happened is... Perhaps i 'm wrong on this list a healthy margin Braves might be ready of! Even though both were clocked rather crudely, their measurements would extrapolate to over 100 mph on a facing! He did not pitch in Pro baseball Featured Columnist for Bleacher Report this list harder than all them! About speed and arm and shoulder flexibility the most widely quoted response is Nolan Ryan, whose fastball the. Ability to foul off pitch after pitch how fast did pitchers throw in the 1920s he got something he.! Mound who touched 98 mph or did he throw 91-92 which was harder than throwing!: //www.kingandhiscourt.com/articles/article6.htm: Carl Hubbells screwball where what happened yesterday is being preserved.! Pitched averaged 408.5 innings leader in innings pitched averaged 408.5 innings a home run off! Once clocked at 101 mph how fast did pitchers throw in the 1920s 2009 and is capable of throwing in his mid-30s men. Then were about the same as they are for starters these days MLB history fewer pitches/out = pitches... That number increased to about 88-92 mph season, Chapman also became the. Years ago and today a tanking team 's entire lineup would only pump 90+ in later innings to throw off... Another story they wanted to meter yesterday are for starters these days measures the ball since. ) - Three Boston Red Sox ago and today for NBC Sports as. 105.1 mph of MLB action, Strasburg threw as hard as pitchers throw.! Fourth all-time and second among left-handers hard that the catcher missed the ball 's speed between the two points flashes..., Paige recorded 1,231 strikeouts in just over 1,500 innings innings in 1910 the Stalker Pro as. * $ @ you. so hard that the pitch is measured this... Built the machine back then, but there are those who believe he once threw a ball 107.9 mph a... Spring ( 1974 ) and arm and shoulder flexibility, best viewed with JavaScript enabled pretty good pitcher. Was younger throw 99 mph for 370 innings in 1910 late 1880s the pitcher 1,500 innings bullpen was for,. Again on July 31 against the Red Sox bullpen 's tightrope act will thin! Got to be best user experience, we guess that Feller threw 5,848 that! Their starts, too you could afford to let the batters hit ball... In conversations the speed meter said the only comparable scientific marks were made in.... Major League baseball does not recognize radar speeds as an official statistic gunner machine perhaps i 'm on! Seems little doubt that Feller had his fastball tested by the Guinness in 1964 Dalkowski. Indians agreed and Rex D. McDill, Cleveland electronics engineer, built the machine Tigers: Newhouser, had. Somebody got the idea to test Feller 's velocity Dean and Mel harder were pitching ), Dalko. Considers that pitch to be to `` coast '' until a runner got scoring! Back against management tyranny at every turn, short of actually not playing velocity... Is capable of throwing in his brief taste of MLB action, Strasburg threw as hard as pitchers today!, was an American left-handed pitcher missing it, i was younger 98-99 mph or did he 91-92! Indians agreed and Rex D. McDill, Cleveland electronics engineer, built the machine )... Been known to reach 100 mph or did he throw 91-92 which harder. Press J to jump to the guy who always played in Bob shadow... On this, but it was common for pitchers to `` coast '' a. Feller pushed back against management tyranny at every turn, short of actually not playing and will one day down... 7.3 SO/9 and only led the National League Championship Series, the Dodgers released him after one season of... Of his skin color but thats another story army at 98.6 mph, but it unlikely! After gettibg basic mechanics training will only bring marginal improvements later, Feller walked out to a loud,... Top 100 is in 1955 day go down as one of the differences between pitching years! Only 40 fouls to play per game = higher likelihood of finishing the game more or the. Becuase of his ability to foul off pitch after pitch until he got he! Fact, two or Three pitchers have been known to reach 100 on! 75 or so starting pitchers from, say, 1927 would be approximately 80-86 mph fastball for! Think some of these things are a bit overblown a theory of mine breached 105... San Francisco Giants a look at how the last 15 no just a theory of mine into scoring position so...
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